Division 4 conference attendance average requirements. (2024)

goofus Division 4 conference attendance average requirements. (1)
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Post: #21

RE: Division 4 conference attendance average requirements.
(08-10-2013 08:17 AM)bullet Wrote:
(08-10-2013 12:05 AM)thespecialk Wrote: On a side note, I really wish people would come up with something more apt than this "Division 4" terminology as far as nomenclature is concerned.

This isn't a fourth division they're discussing; it's a third D-1 subdivision.

This subdivision talk has been going on at their annual conference for about 3-4 years, but it's just now finally getting traction. It's really not a fourth division, though. Just looking to further split Division I-FBS into two.


I doubt that would be the name, but they are trying not to label other divisions as "lesser." That's why I-AA is now FCS. And it may end up being something other than a 4th Division I subdivision (I-A, I-AA, I-AAA-no football).

I like the suggestion I saw somewhere else to call them

1-A (P5)
1-B (G5)
1-C (FCS)

But its just like when the old Big East had to pick a new name and eventually picked AAC. I didn't really like the American as a name, but I didn't really care what name they pick, just as long as they picked a name so we know what to call them.

08-10-2013 10:35 AM
perimeterpost Division 4 conference attendance average requirements. (6)
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Post: #22

RE: Division 4 conference attendance average requirements.
(08-10-2013 10:18 AM)bigblueblindness Wrote:
(08-09-2013 10:43 PM)perimeterpost Wrote: Give some of those MAC schools a piece of that Division 4 money and they can compete. Stop being an elitist.

MAC said to the B1G - "Stop being an elitist"

MVFC said to the MAC - "Stop being an elitist"

HCAC said to the MVFC - "Stop being an elitist"

MSFA said to the HCAC - "Stop being an elitist"

and so on and so forth...

This is the logical chain of events to your argument. Any MVFC fans on here, let the MAC schools know how much of their revenue that you need for them to give so you can compete on their level.

Hey Einstein, MAC and B1G are already in THE SAME FOOTBALL SUB DIVISION.

your argument is invalid.

08-10-2013 11:58 AM
ark30inf Division 4 conference attendance average requirements. (11)
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Post: #23

RE: Division 4 conference attendance average requirements.

I'm not sure I understand why fans have so much desire to seperate in FBS football.

What does it matter to an SEC fan if Tulane has crappy attendance? Does it cause them some sort of harm? No, not really.

Does it cause Alabama or its fans harm if ULM has a low budget? No, it actually helps them. Why complain that ULM has a lower budget than you?

The odds are already massively stacked in favor of the P5. That is to be expected. It is a huge uphill struggle to compete with the P5. My school has had its coach taken by a P5 school every year it is successful. That challenge is very difficult, yet we accept the challenge. Why begrudge us the opportunity to take on that challenge? What skin is it off of a P5 fans nose? We aren't shoving them out of the way for recruits and we aren't edging them out on coaches they want.

Is it the fact that a Boise can edge one team out of a slot that a mediocre P5 team might take? Ok...create two more slots for mediocre P5 teams and the problem is solved with a new P5 slot to boot! Would you still feel affronted because Boise took a slot even though you had two more?

People keep stating that "they can't compete". Well, no they can't compete day in and day out with waterfalls and golden lockers with wifi but they can compete on any given Saturday. They can sometimes beat #8 Arkansas, or Alabama, or take Auburn to overtime...sometimes. Sometimes ULL can take Florida down to the last seconds. It's not like P5 teams are guaranteed a win every time.

Arkansas State averaged 27,000 attendance in a town of 76,000...in a greater metro area of 120,000. Why is putting over 1/3rd of your population into the stands scowled at more than a college in a town of 5,000,000 averaging 35,000?

Part of the glory of college football is a ULM with the lowest budget in football beating #8 Arkansas or App State beating Michigan. Yes that day is unpleasant for Arkansas or Michigan, but the fact is that that would have been a bad day against ANY P5 team as well. A loss is a loss. Those days are fairly rare, but they are good for the sport as a whole.

I guess that P5 fans want to feel like they are part of something separate, something super-elite. Well, they already are. And getting that one more little sliver of grandiosity may risk destroying some more of what makes college sports unique. At some point you may turn around and wonder what happened to the sport you love.

08-10-2013 12:04 PM
Miami (Oh) Yeah ! Division 4 conference attendance average requirements. (16)
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Post: #24

RE: Division 4 conference attendance average requirements.
(08-09-2013 09:51 PM)Star City Hokie Wrote: I think having the requirement that your conference must average 25k in attendance to be a division 4 conference is the best way to separate the big schools from all the riff raff. There is no way that the MAC should be in the same division as the B1G. Same thing with the sunbelt. There is no way they should be in the same division as the SEC. They cannot compete head to head with the power conferences. That why schools schedule them as paid body bag homecoming games.

These MAC, Sunbelt and WAC(rip) schools have attendance much closer the the schools in fcs, than to the bcs schools they are trying to cling too. These are the schools they are trying to separate from. The AAC and the MWC schools (mostly) have proved they can draw decent attendance numbers and compete, but the might end up collateral damage in this division 4 separation.

If it was up to me, I would make it like this. 25K conference attendance average to be division 4, must have 9 members to be a conference, no independents. Problem solved.

You should spend more time worrying about how NOT to get beat by James Madison. JMU owned the Hokies and VT is nothing impressive.

08-10-2013 12:09 PM
GSU Eagles Division 4 conference attendance average requirements. (21)
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Post: #25

RE: Division 4 conference attendance average requirements.
(08-09-2013 09:51 PM)Star City Hokie Wrote: I think having the requirement that your conference must average 25k in attendance to be a division 4 conference is the best way to separate the big schools from all the riff raff. There is no way that the MAC should be in the same division as the B1G. Same thing with the sunbelt. There is no way they should be in the same division as the SEC. They cannot compete head to head with the power conferences. That why schools schedule them as paid body bag homecoming games.

These MAC, Sunbelt and WAC(rip) schools have attendance much closer the the schools in fcs, than to the bcs schools they are trying to cling too. These are the schools they are trying to separate from. The AAC and the MWC schools (mostly) have proved they can draw decent attendance numbers and compete, but the might end up collateral damage in this division 4 separation.

If it was up to me, I would make it like this. 25K conference attendance average to be division 4, must have 9 members to be a conference, no independents. Problem solved.

It wasn't long ago Va Tech was an independent and a very small player in college football. I guess your stance would have been different back then.

08-10-2013 12:15 PM
perimeterpost Division 4 conference attendance average requirements. (25)
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Post: #26

RE: Division 4 conference attendance average requirements.
(08-10-2013 09:48 AM)4x4hokies Wrote: The MAC has had just as long as the P5 to come up with a product that people will watch and they haven't done it. EMU has no business fielding an FBS team. Just putting the MAC teams in the B1G won't automatically make them popular. Teams like ECU haven't been in a top conference and found fan support.

oh is that all that's need, time? Money isn't a factor? interesting.

You're going to judge the entire MAC based on EMU? Fine, I'll judge the entire ACC based on Wake Forrest. Only 3 FBS teams have a worse career winning percentage than the Deacons. Most of their home games have attendance below 30K... so therefore the entire ACC must be rubbish.

08-10-2013 12:18 PM
4x4hokies Division 4 conference attendance average requirements. (30)
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Post: #27

RE: Division 4 conference attendance average requirements.
(08-10-2013 12:18 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:
(08-10-2013 09:48 AM)4x4hokies Wrote: The MAC has had just as long as the P5 to come up with a product that people will watch and they haven't done it. EMU has no business fielding an FBS team. Just putting the MAC teams in the B1G won't automatically make them popular. Teams like ECU haven't been in a top conference and found fan support.

oh is that all that's need, time? Money isn't a factor? interesting.

You're going to judge the entire MAC based on EMU? Fine, I'll judge the entire ACC based on Wake Forrest. Only 3 FBS teams have a worse career winning percentage than the Deacons. Most of their home games have attendance below 30K... so therefore the entire ACC must be rubbish.

You are acting like the MAC hasn't had the same opportunities...they have. The other conferences turned their opportunities into money. The MAC didn't. Now everyone is supposed to feel bad for the MAC and throw them money for nothing since they haven't found a way to make it on their own.

08-10-2013 12:21 PM
BruceMcF Division 4 conference attendance average requirements. (34)
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Post: #28

RE: Division 4 conference attendance average requirements.
(08-10-2013 12:04 PM)ark30inf Wrote: I'm not sure I understand why fans have so much desire to seperate in FBS football.

Very, very few fans do. Its just that a conference realignment board is likely to attract the small minority that do, since on another board they'll be met with "shut up about that and talk about football".

08-10-2013 12:25 PM
thespecialk Division 4 conference attendance average requirements. (38)
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Post: #29

RE: Division 4 conference attendance average requirements.
(08-10-2013 08:17 AM)bullet Wrote:
(08-10-2013 12:05 AM)thespecialk Wrote: On a side note, I really wish people would come up with something more apt than this "Division 4" terminology as far as nomenclature is concerned.

This isn't a fourth division they're discussing; it's a third D-1 subdivision.

This subdivision talk has been going on at their annual conference for about 3-4 years, but it's just now finally getting traction. It's really not a fourth division, though. Just looking to further split Division I-FBS into two.


I doubt that would be the name, but they are trying not to label other divisions as "lesser." That's why I-AA is now FCS. And it may end up being something other than a 4th Division I subdivision (I-A, I-AA, I-AAA-no football).

That might be, although I got the impression some of the media had dubbed that term.

I guess it beats, temporarily, "Code name: eagle"

08-10-2013 12:29 PM
4x4hokies Division 4 conference attendance average requirements. (42)
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Post: #30

RE: Division 4 conference attendance average requirements.
(08-10-2013 12:15 PM)GSU Eagles Wrote:
(08-09-2013 09:51 PM)Star City Hokie Wrote: I think having the requirement that your conference must average 25k in attendance to be a division 4 conference is the best way to separate the big schools from all the riff raff. There is no way that the MAC should be in the same division as the B1G. Same thing with the sunbelt. There is no way they should be in the same division as the SEC. They cannot compete head to head with the power conferences. That why schools schedule them as paid body bag homecoming games.

These MAC, Sunbelt and WAC(rip) schools have attendance much closer the the schools in fcs, than to the bcs schools they are trying to cling too. These are the schools they are trying to separate from. The AAC and the MWC schools (mostly) have proved they can draw decent attendance numbers and compete, but the might end up collateral damage in this division 4 separation.

If it was up to me, I would make it like this. 25K conference attendance average to be division 4, must have 9 members to be a conference, no independents. Problem solved.


It wasn't long ago Va Tech was an independent and a very small player in college football. I guess your stance would have been different back then.

When was VT a small player? Prior to being a charter member of the Southern Conference in 1921 along with Alabama, Tennessee, Clemson, UNC and others? Or when they were an eastern independent playing other independents like Miami, FSU, and WVU? Or when they founded the Big East Football conference with BC, Syracuse, WVU, and Miami?

I don't see my stance being any different back during the time when Div1 split off the first two times since VT has always been included.

(This post was last modified: 08-10-2013 12:33 PM by 4x4hokies.)

08-10-2013 12:31 PM
ark30inf Division 4 conference attendance average requirements. (46)
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Post: #31

RE: Division 4 conference attendance average requirements.
(08-10-2013 12:25 PM)BruceMcF Wrote:
(08-10-2013 12:04 PM)ark30inf Wrote: I'm not sure I understand why fans have so much desire to seperate in FBS football.
Very, very few fans do. Its just that a conference realignment board is likely to attract the small minority that do, since on another board they'll be met with "shut up about that and talk about football".

College football, and college sports in general, has been a beautiful thing. I still can't believe there is no Nebraska/Oklahoma, Missouri/Kansas, Texas/Texas A&M, etc. Greed is killing the country and college sports are just a reflection of the country.

08-10-2013 12:32 PM
jdgaucho Division 4 conference attendance average requirements. (51)
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Post: #32

RE: Division 4 conference attendance average requirements.

It's great seeing how some teams won't put the effort into improving football Just having it is good enough for them - like a UNLV, UAB, EMU or even Kansas. How about they either actually try to improve the program or drop it altogether?

08-10-2013 12:35 PM
blunderbuss Division 4 conference attendance average requirements. (56)
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Post: #33

RE: Division 4 conference attendance average requirements.
(08-10-2013 12:04 PM)ark30inf Wrote: I'm not sure I understand why fans have so much desire to seperate in FBS football.

What does it matter to an SEC fan if Tulane has crappy attendance? Does it cause them some sort of harm? No, not really.

Does it cause Alabama or its fans harm if ULM has a low budget? No, it actually helps them. Why complain that ULM has a lower budget than you?

The odds are already massively stacked in favor of the P5. That is to be expected. It is a huge uphill struggle to compete with the P5. My school has had its coach taken by a P5 school every year it is successful. That challenge is very difficult, yet we accept the challenge. Why begrudge us the opportunity to take on that challenge? What skin is it off of a P5 fans nose? We aren't shoving them out of the way for recruits and we aren't edging them out on coaches they want.

Is it the fact that a Boise can edge one team out of a slot that a mediocre P5 team might take? Ok...create two more slots for mediocre P5 teams and the problem is solved with a new P5 slot to boot! Would you still feel affronted because Boise took a slot even though you had two more?

People keep stating that "they can't compete". Well, no they can't compete day in and day out with waterfalls and golden lockers with wifi but they can compete on any given Saturday. They can sometimes beat #8 Arkansas, or Alabama, or take Auburn to overtime...sometimes. Sometimes ULL can take Florida down to the last seconds. It's not like P5 teams are guaranteed a win every time.

Arkansas State averaged 27,000 attendance in a town of 76,000...in a greater metro area of 120,000. Why is putting over 1/3rd of your population into the stands scowled at more than a college in a town of 5,000,000 averaging 35,000?

Part of the glory of college football is a ULM with the lowest budget in football beating #8 Arkansas or App State beating Michigan. Yes that day is unpleasant for Arkansas or Michigan, but the fact is that that would have been a bad day against ANY P5 team as well. A loss is a loss. Those days are fairly rare, but they are good for the sport as a whole.

I guess that P5 fans want to feel like they are part of something separate, something super-elite. Well, they already are. And getting that one more little sliver of grandiosity may risk destroying some more of what makes college sports unique. At some point you may turn around and wonder what happened to the sport you love.

Best post I've seen on this board in a while. Thanks. +3

08-10-2013 12:48 PM
ark30inf Division 4 conference attendance average requirements. (60)
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Post: #34

RE: Division 4 conference attendance average requirements.
(08-10-2013 12:35 PM)jdgaucho Wrote: It's great seeing how some teams won't put the effort into improving football Just having it is good enough for them - like a UNLV, UAB, EMU or even Kansas. How about they either actually try to improve the program or drop it altogether?

I have zero interest in UAB. But I have to jump in here because they want to improve their program but are hamstrung by political considerations. They WANT to build an on-campus stadium...arranged funding...but are hamstrung.

It's not fair to slam UAB for something its fans, supporters, and athletic department have little control over.

08-10-2013 12:54 PM
Eagle Eddie Division 4 conference attendance average requirements. (65)
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Post: #35

RE: Division 4 conference attendance average requirements.
(08-09-2013 10:43 PM)perimeterpost Wrote: you don't see the correlation between attendance and conference affiliation? Do you think a perennial loser like Indiana could still draw 40K+ if they dropped from the B1G to the MAC? Do you think a program like NIU couldn't draw more if they replaced (Directional) Michigans with Michigan and Michigan State and replaced Ohio with Ohio State?

how can you possibly expect a program that doesn't get drooled over 24/7 by the Sports Media, doesn't get its games shown regularly on primetime TV, doesn't get the GameDay crew to come to their campus, and loses every coach as soon as they win to schools with more money (5 current B1G coaches are from the MAC)... how can you possibly expect them to draw huge attendance numbers?

and why is attendance the be-all metric? Boise State has won 117 games in the last 10 years, more than any other program in FBS and yet their attendance is in the low 30Ks. Meanwhile Indiana has won 38 games in the last 10 years and still outdraws them. Does that make Indiana better or more worthy of receiving the Golden Ticket?

Give some of those MAC schools a piece of that Division 4 money and they can compete. Stop being an elitist.

From a college football perspective PerimeterPost speaks the gospel truth. At Southern Miss, we have been attracting crowds in the range of 32 to 33k in a 36k stadium while hosting the likes of SMU, Houston, UCF and more.

Give us the opportunity to schedule regular home games against a Texas, LSU, Alabama or FSU and we'd have to expand the stadium to accommodate the expected crowd.

ESPN continues to strangle the smaller schools by pretending they don't exist. I miss the old days when the Prudential College Scoreboard would cover all of the scores......including Slippery Rock.

08-10-2013 12:57 PM
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Post: #36

RE: Division 4 conference attendance average requirements.

Any school that averaged 47,013 or more last year should be able to go on to the next level, lol.

08-10-2013 01:03 PM
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Post: #37

RE: Division 4 conference attendance average requirements.
(08-09-2013 10:43 PM)perimeterpost Wrote: you don't see the correlation between attendance and conference affiliation? Do you think a perennial loser like Indiana could still draw 40K+ if they dropped from the B1G to the MAC? Do you think a program like NIU couldn't draw more if they replaced (Directional) Michigans with Michigan and Michigan State and replaced Ohio with Ohio State?

how can you possibly expect a program that doesn't get drooled over 24/7 by the Sports Media, doesn't get its games shown regularly on primetime TV, doesn't get the GameDay crew to come to their campus, and loses every coach as soon as they win to schools with more money (5 current B1G coaches are from the MAC)... how can you possibly expect them to draw huge attendance numbers?

and why is attendance the be-all metric? Boise State has won 117 games in the last 10 years, more than any other program in FBS and yet their attendance is in the low 30Ks. Meanwhile Indiana has won 38 games in the last 10 years and still outdraws them. Does that make Indiana better or more worthy of receiving the Golden Ticket?

Give some of those MAC schools a piece of that Division 4 money and they can compete. Stop being an elitist.

Yea, apparently you don't have to be any good to be in the top division. You just have to convince enough fans that one of these days your team will win more than 5 game in a year. If they did this in baseball, you'd have the Cubs playing the Yankees every year.

08-10-2013 02:30 PM
perimeterpost Division 4 conference attendance average requirements. (79)
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Post: #38

RE: Division 4 conference attendance average requirements.
(08-10-2013 12:21 PM)4x4hokies Wrote:
(08-10-2013 12:18 PM)perimeterpost Wrote:
(08-10-2013 09:48 AM)4x4hokies Wrote: The MAC has had just as long as the P5 to come up with a product that people will watch and they haven't done it. EMU has no business fielding an FBS team. Just putting the MAC teams in the B1G won't automatically make them popular. Teams like ECU haven't been in a top conference and found fan support.

oh is that all that's need, time? Money isn't a factor? interesting.

You're going to judge the entire MAC based on EMU? Fine, I'll judge the entire ACC based on Wake Forrest. Only 3 FBS teams have a worse career winning percentage than the Deacons. Most of their home games have attendance below 30K... so therefore the entire ACC must be rubbish.


You are acting like the MAC hasn't had the same opportunities...they have. The other conferences turned their opportunities into money. The MAC didn't. Now everyone is supposed to feel bad for the MAC and throw them money for nothing since they haven't found a way to make it on their own.

right, and poor people wouldn't be poor if they just weren't so damn lazy. or if they just wanted it a little more.

same opportunities? child please.

08-10-2013 02:31 PM
NIU007
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Post: #39

RE: Division 4 conference attendance average requirements.
(08-10-2013 12:57 PM)Eagle Eddie Wrote:
(08-09-2013 10:43 PM)perimeterpost Wrote: you don't see the correlation between attendance and conference affiliation? Do you think a perennial loser like Indiana could still draw 40K+ if they dropped from the B1G to the MAC? Do you think a program like NIU couldn't draw more if they replaced (Directional) Michigans with Michigan and Michigan State and replaced Ohio with Ohio State?

how can you possibly expect a program that doesn't get drooled over 24/7 by the Sports Media, doesn't get its games shown regularly on primetime TV, doesn't get the GameDay crew to come to their campus, and loses every coach as soon as they win to schools with more money (5 current B1G coaches are from the MAC)... how can you possibly expect them to draw huge attendance numbers?

and why is attendance the be-all metric? Boise State has won 117 games in the last 10 years, more than any other program in FBS and yet their attendance is in the low 30Ks. Meanwhile Indiana has won 38 games in the last 10 years and still outdraws them. Does that make Indiana better or more worthy of receiving the Golden Ticket?

Give some of those MAC schools a piece of that Division 4 money and they can compete. Stop being an elitist.


From a college football perspective PerimeterPost speaks the gospel truth. At Southern Miss, we have been attracting crowds in the range of 32 to 33k in a 36k stadium while hosting the likes of SMU, Houston, UCF and more.

Give us the opportunity to schedule regular home games against a Texas, LSU, Alabama or FSU and we'd have to expand the stadium to accommodate the expected crowd.

ESPN continues to strangle the smaller schools by pretending they don't exist. I miss the old days when the Prudential College Scoreboard would cover all of the scores......including Slippery Rock.

Hits nail on head.

08-10-2013 02:31 PM
bullet Division 4 conference attendance average requirements. (89)
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Post: #40

RE: Division 4 conference attendance average requirements.
(08-10-2013 12:04 PM)ark30inf Wrote: I'm not sure I understand why fans have so much desire to seperate in FBS football.

What does it matter to an SEC fan if Tulane has crappy attendance? Does it cause them some sort of harm? No, not really.

Does it cause Alabama or its fans harm if ULM has a low budget? No, it actually helps them. Why complain that ULM has a lower budget than you?

The odds are already massively stacked in favor of the P5. That is to be expected. It is a huge uphill struggle to compete with the P5. My school has had its coach taken by a P5 school every year it is successful. That challenge is very difficult, yet we accept the challenge. Why begrudge us the opportunity to take on that challenge? What skin is it off of a P5 fans nose? We aren't shoving them out of the way for recruits and we aren't edging them out on coaches they want.

Is it the fact that a Boise can edge one team out of a slot that a mediocre P5 team might take? Ok...create two more slots for mediocre P5 teams and the problem is solved with a new P5 slot to boot! Would you still feel affronted because Boise took a slot even though you had two more?

People keep stating that "they can't compete". Well, no they can't compete day in and day out with waterfalls and golden lockers with wifi but they can compete on any given Saturday. They can sometimes beat #8 Arkansas, or Alabama, or take Auburn to overtime...sometimes. Sometimes ULL can take Florida down to the last seconds. It's not like P5 teams are guaranteed a win every time.

Arkansas State averaged 27,000 attendance in a town of 76,000...in a greater metro area of 120,000. Why is putting over 1/3rd of your population into the stands scowled at more than a college in a town of 5,000,000 averaging 35,000?

Part of the glory of college football is a ULM with the lowest budget in football beating #8 Arkansas or App State beating Michigan. Yes that day is unpleasant for Arkansas or Michigan, but the fact is that that would have been a bad day against ANY P5 team as well. A loss is a loss. Those days are fairly rare, but they are good for the sport as a whole.

I guess that P5 fans want to feel like they are part of something separate, something super-elite. Well, they already are. And getting that one more little sliver of grandiosity may risk destroying some more of what makes college sports unique. At some point you may turn around and wonder what happened to the sport you love.

The primary driver for the schools is they want to set their own rules and not be handcuffed by those with less resources.

08-10-2013 03:33 PM
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